Garrett Sussman

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:00 AM

And we're live!

I'd like to introduce you to our next Campfire Ask Me Anything guest, @gasussman.

Here's a bit about (connect w/ him on LinkedIn):

Garrett Sussman is the Marketing Director at iPullRank, a , and host of . With over fifteen years in marketing—from leading content marketing and demand generation initiatives to sharpening SEO strategies—Garrett’s career spans multiple disciplines. He previously headed marketing at an online review SaaS startup, , and now channels his passion for SEO, content strategy, and generative AI into creative projects at iPullRank.

He’s especially excited to dive into topics like:

• The Psychology of Search Behavior

• Cognitive Bias and Search

• AI Overviews

• Conversational Search

When Garrett's not crafting digital strategies & content, you might catch him scouting the perfect iced coffee, playing with his daughter, devouring a non-fiction psychology book, or whipping up a new recipe in the kitchen.

Garrett's going to be utilizing the audio responses that @adrienne.kmetz Adrienne pioneered for us in our last Ask Me Anything, so don't be shy to fire as many questions at him as you can think of! He won't be limited by how fast he can type.

Glad to have you here today Garrett! Thank you so much for spending some time with us! Start by telling us a little about you and what makes you tick...something a little deeper than I shared above.

1 reply

Lance Moore Mar 13, 2025, 9:04 AM

I've requested to join. Can someone let me in? ????

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:01 AM

Hey everyone! Thanks to @noahlearner, @upyourseogame, and the community for having me. Excited to discuss psychology, conversational search, and the future of SEO.

Noah Mar 13, 2025, 9:02 AM

Okay… I want to know how you got into cognitive bias. I talked about it a little at MozCon in 2023 and was super super stoked to see that it was something that you focus on too. It’s super important. Thoughts?

3 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:04 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:05 AM

OK, so, so way, way, way, way, way back when I was in high school, I remember taking a psychology and literature course back in the day and reading Dostoyevsky and getting really into all the psychology things ended up undergrad psychology major along with English and then you did a whole bunch.

Things naturally somehow ends up in marketing, low barrier to entry and obsession with SEO and really started to think about how these things interact and the marriage between the psychology, the way that we search as something that's something that everybody, you know, encounters like it is not unique to one person.

We're all searching for information.

And so then as I started working with Mike King and I Paul Rank, I think this, this kind of overlap between the science of SEO and the psychology and creativity of it started to make me think about, well, to what extent are we influencing the search results and is that the right direction?

Is that problematic?

That's kind of what really sparked a lot of how I started to think about these things.

Noah Mar 13, 2025, 9:05 AM

wild.

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:04 AM

So, when it comes to the psychology of search, what 's important to know? What's changing? What will always stay the same? How do I go about keeping up to date on how my customer are looking to find the kinds of things I offer?

2 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:06 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:07 AM

OK, so there are so many components that to consider when we're talking about the psychology of search.

First off, where are people getting their information?

There's a lot of discussion around the whole filter bubble and what is the responsibility of a search engine to give you answers that confirm your beliefs.

This sort of like confirmation bias or to give you a diversity of opinions, especially when not all searches are black and white, you know, sometimes there are fact-based searches that there is one definitive answer, but a lot of times we're looking for opinions or different solutions and how is Google deciding what is the best result.

Not only that, because of our confirmation bias, the way that we're looking for answers that reinforce our perspectives and our identity, we will phrase our searches that look to confirm what what we're looking for.

One perfect example I talked about this at Mass in 2024 is, you know, if I'm looking to confirm whether coffee is good for me because I drink a ton of coffee, if I phrase a search, you know, Is coffee good for me?

I'm going to see a certain type of results.

And then if I phrase the search, Is coffee bad for me, I'm going to see a different set of results.

You know, we'll see overlaps.

Because Google is trying in the traditional temb links to give you both sides, but like the featured snippet would actually be changed based on the way you phrase it.

And then when you start to add in AI overviews, you start to see a starkly different issue with a lot of different complicated influences coming in there.

So I think We really need to start to think about not only how we are searching and the way we phrase our search, but also how our audience is.

And one thing that we'll kind of get into, but now as you start to think about conversational search and the fact that these LLMs and algorithms are much more effective at understanding natural language gives us the power to Basically have more longer, you know, specific conversational searches, which adds the opportunity for more bias to be infused into how we're phrasing it.

Noah Mar 13, 2025, 9:06 AM

what has doing podcasts and hosting video chats done for your career?

3 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:08 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:09 AM

Well, let's introduced me to a lot of amazing people, I think, I think it very much opens doors.

I got my role at Ipo Rank based on a webinar that I hosted with Mike King back in the day.

I think having developing relationships initially with a podcast, especially when the reality is you're not going to be able to travel and meet everyone all the time.

I don't do a ton of conferences, so if you work remotely and you're not going to meet people in person.

Having things like a podcast, hosting video chats, or honestly just taking the initiative and reach out and setting up, you know, like a virtual coffee chat.

Actually builds a relationship significantly more than just social media interactions.

Like, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of people that I'll reply to their comments or like their posts and whatnot, and you feel like you have this report or obviously joining a slack community, but when you actually have the podcast or you have the webinar or you have the video.

A coffee chat.

I think it's next level.

It's not all the way to meeting in person, but it gets you a lot closer and opens up a lot of doors because people do feel like they know you that much better.

So when there's another opportunity that comes along, you might be more top of mind or feel like someone that they can trust.

Obviously, if you're making good impressions and connect.

Noah Mar 13, 2025, 9:10 AM

word.

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:06 AM

What are the biggest content strategy mistakes you see brands making?

2 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:10 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:11 AM

Oh man, I mean, there are so many content strategy mistakes, and you know, in the world of SEO, it really depends.

I think one of the biggest mistakes is just taking blanket knowledge and not considering your own contextual situation.

I was writing about this the other day and I've done local SEO right now Iran works with a bunch of enterprise clients or e-commerce clients.

It's all completely different ecosystems.

Like the fundamentals are the same, but when it comes to content strategy, you can't just take a blanket, you know, cookie cutter approach from 10 years ago of just like skyscraper content that just answers exactly what the words are without any personality.

I think more and more as we move to conversational searches, it's becoming critical to infuse.

content with your personality and your hot takes.

This is especially the case for small brands.

I know it's harder for enterprise brands where you do need to really be vanilla and it's hard to have your brand POV be controversial, but if you are a small brand, it's such an opportunity to stand out, to lean into it because stealing market share.

It is really difficult, generally speaking, but if you do it without any personality and you're just generic and you're not memorable and you're not distinctive, you are wasting money, in my opinion.

Lance Moore Mar 13, 2025, 9:06 AM

I requested to join. Can someone let me in? :)

3 replies

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:08 AM

Join what Lance? You're here! Ask a question!

Lance Moore Mar 13, 2025, 9:09 AM

I clicked on the join google meet from the calendar thinking it was a virtual setting. Thanks for clarifying.

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:10 AM

???? Ah! Thanks for pointing that out. I'll make sure that's not there next time. Google automatically adds that when creating a calendar event.

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:09 AM

What strategies do you use to adapt existing content to better match search intent? Search Intent in general...how do you think about it?

2 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:13 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:13 AM

Oh, this is a fun and complicated one.

I think the best way to do it is to naturally look at the search.

At least that's very much the old school way, and I think it's still relevant, is to look at the actual search, search for the search intent.

, I think it is tricky because one thing that we don't talk about a lot in SEO, especially if you're doing skyscraper content, you have a big brand, is the fact that one article, one piece of content, more often than not will rank for a variety of different searches, you know, so it can be tricky whether you go to the ranch SEO approach like Bernard of ClearScope, where you're looking at, you know, Going for a very specific query across a whole bunch of different articles or trying to cover it all in one article.

The interesting thing when it comes to like AI overviews, for instance, is they are very much more focused on individual passages.

And so, and also they don't necessarily focus on the specific query.

And I think that's very much a clue into the direction that search is going, where Google doesn't necessarily want you to have to do all the research.

Like Google doesn't want you to actually click into 10 different links that may or may not say the same thing to be able to pull out that one piece of information.

And so as we see SEPs evolve and Google does a better job of like not just curating the top results, but curating subtopics that are related and expand upon your query is most likely the direction that we're going in.

And so, The, it really does come back to seeing what the results are for a specific query in the appropriate context that you're looking at them.

And then going down the journey, right?

Going to the next logical question, the next logical follow-up, and trying to make sure you're filling in those gaps of the content that competitors might not be, you know, addressing.

Noah Mar 13, 2025, 9:11 AM

I’ve been jealous of your ability to get folks talking when interviewing folks. How have you been able to say less while getting others to say more?

2 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:14 AM

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Noah Mar 13, 2025, 9:18 AM

word. Shutting up has been something I’ve REALLY been trying to focus on with the Campfire Chats.

Noah Mar 13, 2025, 9:12 AM

Who are you jealous of as a host (this is me wanting to get better)?

4 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:16 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:19 AM

Hm, this is, this is actually a tough question.

I don't know if there's anyone I'm necessarily jealous of.

I think that I'm jealous of audience size because marketing these are, are, you know, difficult, but I really enjoy listening to, Morty Oberstein is really fun, to, to talk about the, the guys at Candor, have really great conversations.

I love listening to Jay Aunzo when it comes to like more of a marketing bent, I would say the one guy I'm jealous of that isn't necessarily SEO but just podcast is I've really enjoyed Shane Parish of the Knowledge Project and mostly because of like the top tier thinkers that he has on his podcast as guests, and the, the conversations that he has, but I don't, I don't know if there, there's a lot of people that like I'm super jealous of because when it comes to this, I just enjoy other people's content, content, content.

So maybe it's not a jealousy thing as much as just a, those are a few of the people I admire and enjoy.

Noah Mar 13, 2025, 9:20 AM

I’ll have to check out the Knowledge project podcast.

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:23 AM

I'm really loving Lex Friedman. Not SEO, but love how he dive in with people from all backgrounds and disciplines and gets to the human side of the equation. I recently heard him interview Volodymyr Zelenskyy and was just really glad he exists.

I also like @mordyo's podcast. Marie Haynes has been a fav of mine. Like her passion and curious mind. Glad we have @softplus out there sharing and helping the community.

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:12 AM

How do you analyze which types of content are more likely to be featured in Google’s AI overviews?

4 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:20 AM

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Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:21 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:26 AM

So watching Ryan, right, has been really interesting over the last couple of years as they rolled this out.

I think it's still very volatile.

it's probabilistic answers, right?

So you're rarely going to see the same sort of thing.

sometimes you do see for more common queries.

similar types of answers.

I was actually just doing an experiment on LinkedIn to see if you just ask something basic, like in the conversational searches, you know, what's the best car, you, you see a lot of overlap, but you see a range of answers.

I think a lot of it has to do with what people are already saying, which is, you know, Remember, Google is machine learning, right, using the large language model.

There's nothing like qualitative.

It's all numbers.

So the, the, the fundamental important thing is relevance on a quantitative quantitative level.

Remember that a vector embeddings.

way that Google will use models to take words and translate them into mathematical values and then plot them on a graph based on mathematical relationships using things like cosine similarity.

So being able to mathematically determine how close something is to an entity.

is fundamentally how Google identifies relevance.

When AI overviews first came out, it did not seem like they were incorporating any other of the typical algorithmic signals.

I remember back in 2022, it wasn't authority, it wasn't user behavior, which, which, you know, we know that Google uses now, and a range of other signals and originally, you know, you wouldn't even see, You know, top 10 results appear in the AI overviews.

And one thing that we've learned, Rich Sanger, with Authoritas did a lot of interesting research into the way that AI overviews actually expand your query.

So it's pulling in information.

Theoretically, not just from the results for the specific search, but for reformulated searches for, you know, relevant searches for related searches, and then using that to generate the output.

And that feels like it's evolving too over time.

You know, now it seems like it may actually be pulling in more authority signals, but that's not definitive.

I remember there was a GEO.

you know, I wrote about from some folks at the University of Mumbai and Princeton talking about things like using citations and using links and using authoritative language and doing some keyword stuffing and things like that that ultimately resulted in getting into the AI overviews, but I feel like the experiments are not all showing that at this point, which is interesting.

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:26 AM

11 additional thing here that you call out is like which types of content.

I think, you know, looking at the citations and analyzing what is coming in is a good part of it.

So, you know, you're going to see different types of content for a commercial search versus an informational search.

For instance, you know, like you You still see the listicles on the shopping tab for commercial searches or UGC.

That was another thing that we were seeing going back and forth is at times AI overviews were pulling in UGC and other times it was avoiding like Reddit and other times it was avoiding them altogether.

So I think that right now.

It's very much a difficult moving target to track because one week you'll feel confident that you are in there with a a piece of content that's relevant for your query and the next minute it's completely gone.

So I think that you need to cast a wide net.

Lance Moore Mar 13, 2025, 9:14 AM

Who do you follow and listen to?

3 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:23 AM

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Lance Moore Mar 13, 2025, 9:26 AM

Thank you for sharing!!

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:29 AM

Great question, Lance.

So, I typically, it's funny, I used to follow a lot of folks on Twitter.

I haven't been spending as much time on Twitter these days, but it's a range of people that I've come across in the industry from my different relationships.

A lot of those folks are speaking at SEO Week.

I like to have a balance between people who've been doing this for a long time as well as people who are up and coming.

So while I look to some of the old school SEOs who aren't even doing SEO in the world, like my, my boss Mike King, Rand Fishkin, Will Reynolds, a lot of the distilled folks, so like Will and Tom Crichlow, a lot of the Moz folks, Tom Caper, Doctor Pete, I love what Lydia Infante puts out, Abby Gleeson, obviously Lily Ray and Aleyda Solis, Marie Haynes, the list goes on.

I'm going to leave off so many people, You know, I like paying attention to a lot of the technical folks these days, even though some of it still goes over my head.

So, you know, Dan Petrovic, Andrea Volpini, I look at, I like listening to like the marketing folks like the Ryan Laws of the world.

I love listening to Cindy Crum.

She's always coming up with really interesting, well researched and data-backed conspiracy theories, if that's fair to say.

, I feel like this is, it's always such a tricky thing to answer these questions because I feel like I'm leaving a lot of people out.

I love listening to Crystal Carter, Arihabuwali, and you know, a lot of the awesome ideas coming out of the Women in Tech SEO community, Shima Maje, Man, I feel like I want to come back at the end of this to like Put in like everyone else that I, I forgot about because there's so many like Spar Ross Simmons, Ross Hudgins, we were joking the other day, the Breeze, or the Andersons, Bree Anderson and Bianca Anderson, Dana De Tomaso.

I think Noah Lerner says, says some interesting things from time to time, and everyone in this community as well, there are so many, so many smart smart people, yeah.

Noah Mar 13, 2025, 9:14 AM

I saw @mike734 was in Milwaukee this week getting folks super stoked for <#C08GVBMDSEQ|>. What have you learned so far about organizing a conference?

3 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:26 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:29 AM

If you build it, they will come.

That's why I still have faith on it.

It's hard.

I think the events industry took a major hit, post-COVID, speaking to a lot of other event coordinators, like there's a lot of hustle, there's a lot of challenge.

I think with SEO week coming up, we have In my humble, not so humble opinion, the best speaker lineup, that's for any SEO event that has, has ever been done.

I mean we're like 40+ people and it's absolutely ridiculous.

4 days is a long event.

I feel like, you know, being in New York is really exciting, but, you know, you have to take into consideration that people travel, they need to get budget from their, from their bosses that even if you have the best content in the world, there's a lot of reasons why people can't make it out to events.

And so I think giving people enough time to plan, giving people compelling reasons, But ultimately event marketing is a hustle, and I hope it comes back because Mazon in 2024 was my first event and especially going back to my answer about doing all these podcasts and talking to all these people and feeling like I get to know them, then when you meet them in person, like you and I sat next to each other, you were the first person I kind of connected with when I got to Mazhan and Yeah, when, when you invest in spending time online and social, it really does feel like you're just connecting with old friends, and that is a major selling point.

I think community.

is one of the best ways to connect with people and get them to a conference because you hear about, you know, the events that you guys put together that women in tech SEO puts together, that the folks in the UK, Brighton SEO puts together a lot of it is a social element.

So I have so much admiration for the community that you've built here, and You know, there, there's no doubt in my mind that anytime that you put on something now in the SCO community, people will come.

So it's not easy, it's hard, but it's fun, it's rewarding, and I just, I can't wait for this event at the end of April.

Noah Mar 13, 2025, 9:32 AM

:pray :pray :pray

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:15 AM

Information gain...what is it, why does it matter, how do you do it right?

2 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:29 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:30 AM

Information gain is a tricky subject for SEOs because the thing is, it is technical, right?

Like it is not just, so the basic idea is that when Google is evaluating content, it doesn't want to always just Put out redundant content, copycat, you know, that everybody is putting out.

It needs content that answers the search intent of the query and adds something new to the information.

And remember that's in a quantitative measure.

So, Basically, these algorithms have an information gain score, how much net new content that's relevant and helpful is being added to the document that makes it much more valuable to the person who's searching and ultimately, That will impact your visibility, the, the chance that you rank for relevant searches, Information game at the same time, it doesn't always have a moat.

So like some ways to do information game, right, is to have a *unique perspective* in your voice, to add *first-party data* that's not easy for other people to obtain and to try to add Content that is not easy for other people and other businesses and other websites to replicate.

The easier it is for someone else to create that content, whether it's using like a generative AI tool like ChatGPT, the more easy it is to commodify that content and the less valuable your contribution is to the general SERP.

And so whenever you're creating content, You know, we're so used to this idea of showing up for head terms like the most general evergreen content, and at this point, it's very hard to say something new.

So it becomes more of like a brand and authority play than just what the relevance is.

But for anything that starts to become more niche, more long tail.

Adding something new, there's an opportunity there, especially if it's it's a newer category or a newer industry where there is less things that have been said from the, you know, new experts that are that are entering.

Rushang Patel Mar 13, 2025, 9:15 AM

A personal question - How do you break down complex psychological ideas for clients who are more focused on business metrics? Any tips on making it relatable? I've tried, but I feel like I haven’t been able to connect all the dots for them properly, which can be quite frustrating. ????

4 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:32 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:34 AM

Great question.

So, I mean, the first thing is to understand communication styles, right?

Like to understand what matters to the person that's asking.

I'm, I'm actually reading a really great book, highly recommended.

It's called Super Communicators by Charles Duhig, and he talks about the idea that every conversation is broken up into three types of conversation and there's overlap.

It's not always just about one, but it's like the practical, the emotional, and the social.

And so when you're having a conversation with clients or colleagues or executives, whatever, Are they looking for a practical answer?

Like, are they asking for like a decision, what are we gonna do?

Are they looking for an emotional conversation where they have concerns, like they are scared or they're excited about the business metrics, like it taps into their own career needs.

That's the social component, right?

Like, how does it impact them?

And so as you navigate the type of conversation you're having, then you can start to frame the way that you're approaching it in a more personal level that addresses what the specific person is looking for.

So I think that, you know, you can't come always come in with a logical approach.

You can't always come in with an emotional approach, and you can always come in with an identity.

Different people act in different ways at different times and so what you need to do is to train yourself to be able to read the conversation.

You need to come and prepared.

You still need to have You know, the prioritizations and the recommendations like identifying like what is going to move the needle, what matters and why, and address that, but you need to be prepared to jump on the fly to address it in a way that's going to resonate with your specific audience and sometimes just to even get there in the first place is to start with questions.

Don't forget that that asking questions and getting people to share their own vulnerabilities will give insights into what they're actually looking for so that you can actually provide recommendations or build that relationship.

In a more effective way.

Rushang Patel Mar 13, 2025, 9:44 AM

Thanks for answering my question, Garett! I feel like I could work on my professional communication a bit, finding the right words to say and expressing what really matters. I'll definitely check out the book you mentioned. Really appreciate it! ????

Rushang Patel Mar 13, 2025, 9:45 AM

..and thanks for the transcription @upyourseogame! undefined

Aimee Jurenka Mar 13, 2025, 9:18 AM

What tactics are you using to gain AI Overview placements?

2 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:35 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:40 AM

I, so I feel like with AI overview placements, the first focus is, relevance.

So, what we were using for a long time was Maring Brew had a tool like back in the day was the SGE visualizer and now it was the AI overview visualizer and we have some in-house tools for What I referenced before, which is like cosine similarity.

an example of that at a page level is orbitwise.

You can find it at .

And what it does is it analyzes the vector embeddings to make sure that the specific passages are addressing the like query for the AI overview.

, in addition to that, there's a lot of reverse engineering.

So, you know, looking at the AI overview for a search query and trying to find ways that you can show up, by either doing in content formats, the same way that you would address a featured snippet.

One other thing that I do is I look at the citations and I don't assume that it is answering the specific query.

That you're trying to show up in trying to identify from the example citations, what are the related or reformulated queries because in a lot of sense when you see some of the research from folks like SE Rankings or Kevin Indiig or Authoritas or Profound who we're working with that it's not always like the, the specific query that is getting pulled in for these.

So don't spend time only looking at the full search results page of that query.

You've got to use some creative thinking and try to identify what other reformulation related queries that is asking for.

So there is a kind of qualitative approach to that as well.

Oh, and then, and then finally, digital PR.

If if you can't beat them, join them, you know, like identifying what are the citations that are being pulled in and can you get placement on there.

A lot of those are pay to play, but like for instance, we use profound where we'll look at a specific topic.

This is more for like conversational search platforms, but they do it for AI overviews as well and identify which citations at scale.

are being pulled in for AI overviews and then trying to do outreach to show up on those articles so that you get pulled into the AI overview as a top result.

Noah Mar 13, 2025, 9:21 AM

How do you create balance in your worklife? Other than gritting your way through it (cough cough) any life hacks to make us smarter?

2 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:38 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:40 AM

Dude, that this is hard.

It depends on your context, right?

Like if you are a solore or a solo consultant, like, I think that regardless of whether you're working with clients or if you're in-house and you're working with colleagues or an agency, is setting expectations in terms of what other people need from you and the timeline and Owning them and feeling, you know, and being very, having, having those boundaries from the get-go because it is hard to recover if you let the boundaries slide.

, one technique that I found that works really well, both internally and with other people is addressing priorities.

So if someone has an ask in-house and it feels ad hoc and you just don't have time for it, is reframing it back to the person saying like, is this more important than these other things?

What do you want me to bump?

And so because we only have so many hours in the day.

Now if you are, you know, At an earlier stage in your career, it's harder to do that.

Because there are some industries where the expectation is the hustle and you might find yourself losing out on opportunities, but that's always the case in the world, like, you know, remote versus in-house, you know, different industries, the, the colleague who works harder.

I think ultimately it's about providing value and developing relationships that and setting expectations that make it easier.

to hold those boundaries and being willing to say no to things.

I think it's really about understanding yourself and what you're willing to do and what you're not willing to do.

I think that also is sometimes a privilege.

I think that it's really hard when you are in circumstances where you don't feel like you have the freedom to say no.

And so I am empathetic to that, and I think that It requires you to constantly think about efficient solutions that get the job done, not reinventing the wheel and picking and choosing where you spend your mental energy, but, you know, it's like when everyone says they're like writing a book for everyone because they're an expert on, they're always like, well, I'm also writing it for myself.

When people post on LinkedIn, like a lot of times they're like, I'm I'm also giving this advice to myself, like, same here.

You know, like I'm always, there are times in my life where I feel like the work balance is really great, and I think there are times where it gets out of control, but I have a 3 year old daughter and I know for myself I've been like, no, I am, family time is important.

I'm not going to make that sacrifice.

I'll I'll figure out other ways.

and fortunately, you know, when I rank, I, I feel lucky to have that support like we have a good work-life balance, but I know in this job market like It's not easy to find that.

So long way of saying that do your best to build relationships and establish expectations and boundaries, but it's not always easy and it's not always feasible in your current situation.

Noah Mar 13, 2025, 9:24 AM

What are some tips you can share from the trenches for marketing SEO agencies? What works? What are you surprised doesn’t?

2 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:42 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:45 AM

The the trenches are, are nuts right now.

I give so much credit to our client facing team because they are What we do at IPol Rank is so much of it is science-driven and data-backed.

And so I think the, there's like two mindsets that are really critical for marketing SEO agency for like just agencies and marketers in general is being open to experimentation.

And to also be willing to learn new products and new ways of doing things because I think in SEO we are facing, I hate to use the word paradigm because I always remember that Simpsons episode where you see a bunch of executives talking about like are words like paradigm, words that like stupid people use to make them sound smart, but like, It is actually, yes, SEO, there are a lot of fundamentals and best practices that are the same, but the way that people are searching and the capabilities of algorithms and conversational search platforms to understand searches does change the way that you need to approach content strategy.

And so I think what is working is a lot of the EEAT stuff is like what people Say is to make your content more human and more authentic and doing that at scale as possible.

I think generative AI tools allow you to do that more effectively, but always making sure that you have the human in the loop to review your content, add the information game, like leverage your subject matter experts, because I think That ultimately what works is, is knowing what your business metrics are, what your content drives revenue, and being able to have that conversation of how SEO or, you know, relevance engineering, like showing up on these large language models supports all of your marketing efforts.

Like it's really hard to accept the fact that So much of marketing doesn't work and so much of brand exercises feels ambiguous, ambiguous and hard to tie to specific.

Attributable attributable metrics, but you need to have this kind of bigger open perspective on how everything is contributing and not to give up.

It's consistency, it's visibility, it's all the pieces working together, right?

Like it's, it's not as much hacks anymore.

It's everything.

Aimee Jurenka Mar 13, 2025, 9:25 AM

What should we as SEOs be prioritizing to learn to keep up with AIOs & GEO?

2 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:45 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:47 AM

Great question, Aimee.

So, I think the biggest thing is, is at the very least, start to understand the technology and how it works.

Like none of us, not none of us.

Some of us are not going to be developers or engineers, but I think the, the best thing you can do is try your best to understand.

How these models work.

It is a black box for most of us, but you know, things like the Google leak does give us insights.

learning about, you know, transformer models and probabilistic outputs gives you an understanding about how volatile these things are.

I feel like I'm constantly learning things around.

Information retrieval, memory grounding.

Right now, it's really difficult because there's so much noise and so much innovation and so many new things that are happening that it's overwhelming to pay attention to.

So I think there's value in paying attention to trends.

you know, right now, we still see that Google's market share is significant.

But you should probably pay attention to how Chat GPT works, and I think the best way to do that is to get into the platforms and test and experiment because a lot of the tools are behind in the way that Google works, you know, Mike talks about this a lot for a long time, I feel like Google algorithms have focused on lexical queries like specific words as opposed to the relationship, the semantic relationships between queries and things like BERT and MUM and natural language understanding has advanced so much that over the long term, we're going to see more granular long-tail searches, more conversational searches, and more specific answers.

So it's going to be frustrating because it's going to be harder to earn traffic at scale and so you need to figure out ways to be able to personalize your content for these longer tail queries, You know, across the board.

So I think it's becoming challenging, but how can you scale personalization without losing authenticity and without losing your humanity?

Mike King Mar 13, 2025, 9:27 AM

How did you get to be such a rockstar?

3 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:39 AM

???? Audio message

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:45 AM

Get out of here.

I did not, I did not say anything about you.

I did not, what is it blow smoke or say anything.

I can't help.

I'm I'm this guy's like, like right hand man MC.

We're going to be rocking SEO week but.

Thank you, thank you for for coming by, Mr.

Boss man.

I appreciate your your time and I think this road tripping in leaving Milwaukee, heading to Florida.

We have, we have this ongoing thing at the agency being like where in the world is talking about meeting people.

He's like face to face in person with the folks and and and I've been to like two events, so, but you guys can come chill with us at SCO Week in New York.

What do you say?

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:46 AM

Maybe we could create one of those Santa Trackers for Mike? Ha!

Lawrence Parmisana Mar 13, 2025, 9:33 AM

What's your best advice for those planning to start their career in SEO?

3 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:48 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:51 AM

Great question, Lawrence.

So I would say learn the fundamentals from a reputable source.

Right?

So, whether you are taking, and, and I know people are critical of like the SAAS companies like, you know, Ahrefs and Moz and SEMrush of the world, but I do think there's value in the fundamentals of learning their courses, you know, reading a book like the Science of SEO, or excuse me, the, The Art of SEO by like Eric Enge, Mike's coming out with The Science of SEO which I get caught up with.

So keep your eyes peeled for that book.

And then to pay attention to reputable experts in the field, I think, for instance, Aleyda Solis has an incredible, site that she curates content from people that she trusts and Aleyda is trustworthy.

So anything on that site is trustworthy content.

But that said, I think that there is The best way, aside from just learning the basics is developing relationships.

In this industry, like develop relationships, don't be afraid to ask questions, even with people who have been doing it for years and understand the fundamentals and say SEO never changes.

There are a lot of things that are changing, and I think the other big thing is to understand the, the great joke of SEO, but it depends.

What works for one person doesn't always work for another person.

There's context, there's business models, there's the value of organic search, there's your audience, there's different types and sizes of websites, there's different industries.

There are so many nuances that you can focus on that it's not smart.

To generalize best practices.

So soak in information, adapt, make sure that the content that you're learning is reputable, and the people that's given it is reputable and don't get sucked into hype or scams or all these things, but The more things change, the more they seem the same, but they're also changing a lot, so I'm all over the place with that one.

I hope that's helpful.

Lawrence Parmisana Mar 13, 2025, 10:00 AM

Thank you so much for this Garrett! Looking forward to getting ahold of Mike's book soon!

Preeti Gupta Mar 13, 2025, 9:35 AM

Thanks for doing this AMA, Garrett! You're so awesome

My question is: How do you decide what topics to make videos/posts on? And how do you track the performance of all the content you guys put out?

3 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:51 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:52 AM

Hey, hey, Preeti.

OK, so when it comes to us, I think it's, we're not always taking the same sort of SEO approach that you would see from, you know, a commerce brand or a media publisher because when it comes to our focus as an agency and our revenue, it's important for us to be relevant in the conversations that are happening for our ideal customer profile, right?

And so with iPullRank, for instance, our focus is on that, that kind of intersection between SEO, a lot of technical SEO, content.

And generative AI and just AI in general and AI is really interesting, right, because it's, you know, creating content or executing SEO with AI automation and AI tools, but it's also how is AI and machine learning impacting the search results.

So for us, it's a combination of what videos and topics are interesting to us, what are interesting to our ideal client, where's that overlap.

And then, in terms of like tracking performance that we put out, I think ultimately, it is like the, the bigger leading metrics of like, you know, how many, how many people do end up becoming customers, coming to prospects, clients come into our pipeline, how, you know, then more vanity metrics of what did generate interest.

Because Podcasts and social media are tricky.

You don't want to necessarily like appeal to the bottom denominator.

Like you don't want to be just like this, this guru that's taking clickbait because what something like LinkedIn.

Rewards is not always, you know, what is actually valuable to our ideal client, you know, I could talk about LinkedIn growth on LinkedIn and that's not necessarily going to appeal to execs or high-level SEOs, You know, who, who are, who are looking for more, what do I do with my, with my content strategy, with my SEO strategy, how do I build my brand on these new conversational search platforms.

So, a lot of it is kind of reading trends.

Giving some contrarian perspectives, giving just our POV in general on what's most important in our industry and trying to provide data and insights that would be interesting to our ideal customer profile.

Preeti Gupta Mar 13, 2025, 9:55 AM

Thanks for the detailed reply, Garrett. I really appreciate it. And I love how you're doing an audio AMA instead of a text one. It is very cool :)

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:36 AM

What cool things are you, @mike734, and the rest of the team at iPullRank doing that you don't see others doing quite as much (and of course the assumption here is cool stuff that's working/moving the needle)?

2 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 9:56 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 10:01 AM

So obviously @mike734 is the brainchild of a lot of the the processes and strategies that we do at iPullRank, but you know, going back in in for his whole career, you know, he's always been data backed and he's always looked at The patents or the information coming out of Google or his relationships to get insights, get that competitive advantage as to what is happening with the algorithm that would generate long-term value.

It's not about hacks, right?

It's about foundational.

Strategies that will help large enterprise Fortune 500 brands dominate the market in organic search and earn visibility, tying it to metrics.

Now the reality of that, which goes back to last June when we saw the Google leaks and the DOJ trial against antitrust trial against Google, is the insights into the quantitative metrics.

That Google uses to determine visibility, you know, those three factors that have been coming up throughout this entire AMA around relevance, like the quantitative approach to relevance, authority, how does Google actually, you know, assess authority, and then user behavior, right?

Like that revelation that The way that people interact with your website after they leave Google based on the type of search impacts how you rank going forward.

Specifically, we're trying to get ahead of what's happening with AI overviews, you know, the value for brands, conversational search platforms, you know, whether or not we're going to see.

more people moving into those platforms for their source of search information.

Like right now, you know, you see a lot of people going to Chat GPT, but then they'll actually do their own fact checking on Google, right?

So in terms of, you know, providing solutions and services to our clients, it's these comprehensive audits at both SEO backlinks and content.

Some competitive research, building out the keyword portfolios, so making sure that you are visible on every element of topic that's relevant to your industry, like not doing, you know, you see it happen with HubSpot where they're trying to be everything marketing.

No, to make sure that your site is focused on what really matters, especially assuming that we do move into more of a Conversational search channel that people are going to start looking for more specific answers that your informational content will be commodified and not generate as much valuable traffic in the long term and to make sure that your brand is showing up this sort of visibility, this relevance engineering, that your brand shows up.

On these organic search channels in ways that we may not be used to, but is the way going forward.

We're not abdicating search just because we're, we might not be seen as top of the funnel search traffic as we might have seen historically.

We're making sure that we are developing the important content for visibility, the brand recognition, the authority, the digital PR.

And framing it in a way with the C-suite that gets us a say at the table, that SEO shouldn't be pushed to the side because what we're doing and the future direction of this stuff has never been more important and SEOs are best positioned.

To be the thought leaders either internally at your at your company or reach out to an agency like Iran who can do the work, who can do the data, who can do the science and provide the recommendations, what is going to ultimately set you up long term.

For these platforms and the strategy going forward.

Tyler Brown Mar 13, 2025, 9:52 AM

Thanks for doing this! Can you talk about a time when your engagement with a client, or work on a personal site, hit a wall? Or better yet, hit a wall repeatedly, possibly head-first? How'd you deal with it?

2 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 10:00 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 10:03 AM

Great question, Tyler.

So When like when with with iPullRank as an agency.

One of the nice things about working at an enterprise brand is you, you always, these clients always have like a certain amount of brand visibility and authority in the space.

So it's a different conversation than just a matter of the, the results like going up or down or hitting a wall, if you will.

I would say the most important aspect of Our agency is our relationship with our clients when it comes to making sure our recommendations are implement implemented because I've been in-house side of things as well, and I do a lot, you know, most of my responsibilities that I rank are in-house.

I'm not doing a ton of like client facing work, but with in-house, you have a certain amount of time and resources to actually execute, and you might have the best of intent.

pensions when you hire an agency, but there are a lot of hurdles, especially the larger the organization to get signed off, especially when with enterprise levels like you might need to involve different departments, different lines of business if you're working with like developers to get something across the line, to work with the marketing team, content teams within the teams, the executive team, the legal team.

So I think The most important thing is to develop relationships across an organization with a client and to tie the work that you're doing to the implementation.

Right?

To make sure you get follow-ups being like, well, here's what we recommend.

We are confident this is going to work, but it's not going to work unless we do it.

Who do we need to talk to to figure out to make this work and why do we not, you know, or why is it not working?

And so I think through those conversations, developing those great relationships.

That's when you start to see implementation happen.

And then, and that's early on in engagement.

As you get those wins, as you get it implemented and you see the results, then any friction that you have diminishes over time.

And so, you know, with our relationships with our clients, you know, you're always going to have like champions outside the gate.

To who like brought you on board and got you signed up to begin with, and sometimes it's easier where like you already have like a lot of the organization on board.

Other times it's, it's a lot of conversations and a lot of like small bites that lead to bigger bites that lead to the wins and these long-term engagements that we continue.

I hope that helps.

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 9:56 AM

What are the most promising applications of AI in SEO that you’ve seen so far?

2 replies

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 10:02 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 10:05 AM

Oh man, for AI and SEO, there, there's so many different directions that we could ultimately go in.

I don't know if I consider it promising, but I am excited slash intrigued about the future of agentic AI.

So, The idea, you know, going, using like Chat GPT's operator or like the, the model context protocol at Claude, the idea of giving these chatbots, the permissions or, or the authority to go to a website browser, go to websites and do significant tasks for you, is really exciting, you know, thinking about like, you know, booking a trip, You know, where it just gives you all the possibilities and you know then can go and do all the work for you.

But what's interesting from the SEO perspective then is like you are not necessarily trying to create content or functionality for a person, you're creating it for the robot, the AI chatbot, the AI whatever, the agentic AI that's working for.

The person, and that's potentially a different conversation.

So actually you need to think about things about expanding the content and the details, using structured data, making sure your site architecture, your whole website is clean without any sort of like blockers like JavaScript, unintended consequences there, showing up in your merchant feed for e-commerce, making sure that no plug-ins or any other develop development tech gets in the way.

, but ultimately I could see, you know, 235 years down the line that that sort of stuff is going to become more of a norm.

from a consumer standpoint, it's exciting, but it's definitely not there yet.

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 10:00 AM

And that's our hour!

If you missed asking @gasussman questions live, he's agreed to pop his head in over the next few days to answer any stragglers.

Let's give him a round of applause! You all asked some great Qs and he was right on top of them all!

Thanks so much Garrett for your time and the energy you brought us this morning (and I'm not just saying that because I was listening to your audio answers on 2x speed!)!

Aimee Jurenka Mar 13, 2025, 10:01 AM

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Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 10:02 AM

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Rushang Patel Mar 13, 2025, 10:02 AM

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Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 10:04 AM

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1 reply

Ryan Mendenhall Mar 13, 2025, 10:06 AM

Thank you, thank you all.

Thank you, Ryan again and Noah for having me.

I like this format.

I think everybody should do it.

It's so much easier to be able to kind of speak your mind as opposed to you guys waiting for me to like sit and plod along on my computer.

Like, don't get me wrong, I'm a fast typer, but I feel like we're able to get a lot more done with these little audio memos.

So I hope this was helpful for you all.

I really enjoy talking about all of this stuff.

If you haven't already, you want like more ideas like this.

I have been doing these like mini 15-20 minute podcasts with all of the SEO Week speakers.

Today we have Talia Wolf came up yesterday.

It was like Nick Eubanks talking all about SEMrush's acquisition strategy.

We had Tom Crichlow who talks about like the business approach to SEO and getting buy-in for the C-suite.

I talked with the Aleyda Solis about e-commerce.

there are like 2 more coming that I've recorded, so.

If you haven't already listened to those, check those out.

If you haven't gotten tickets to SEO Week at the end of April in New York City, it's the 28th to the 1st. Tickets are still available. It's coming up with a lot of those speakers you can go to to check that out, and I, it's all me.

I need to get a form together about working with Noah on getting a promotion where we will be giving away a free ticket to the SEO community, so keep your eyes peeled for the details on that.

Thank you all for spending your time with me.

If you want to geek out with me, find me on LinkedIn, Garrett Sussman.

I'm on Twitter, but honestly, or I don't use it as much, or feel free obviously to DM me here, and we can talk more about psychology, conversational AI, the future of SEO, working with an agency, career, SEO career, all that jazz, always happy to help.

Thank you all and have a great day and I'll, I'll pop in here there and try to answer any other struggling questions that come in.

Garrett Sussman Mar 13, 2025, 10:04 AM

^ ❤️

Mika Lepistö Mar 13, 2025, 10:05 AM

First straggler!

Thanks for taking the time and being here @gasussman!

I'm super curious how you view SEO roles (and marketing in general) changing around specific actions we should do for the agentic future. Ex: Manus AI and similar near/fully autonomous agents.

Ask Me Anything with
Garrett Sussman

iPullRank

13 Mar 2025 9:00 AM MST

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iPullRank

13 Mar 2025 9:00 AM MST

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