Show Transcript

Noah Learner

my goodness. So for everybody at home, we really appreciate all your patience. Amy, can you mute? Thanks. Okay. For everybody at home, this has been quite a, quite a ride. it's very exciting. So we're joined today by Dana De Tomaso, one of my real heroes in digital marketing. I've been following you forever.

Dana DiTomaso

live. All right.

Noah Learner

all the way back to 2015. I mean, like we've hung out at so many conferences. It's just amazing to spend time with you. Before we jump in, I want to just thank our community partners really quickly. SEO jobs, Dry Fly Digital, Citation Labs, Bento, AirOps, and ModEx.com that all have been instrumental in giving us the ability to put on events like this.

Dana, it's so amazing to be with you. I was looking back and we did a show together on Agency Automators back in 2019. Back then, I think I kicked off the show by telling you how you had spoken at every single conference I'd ever attended and you had the best comeback line, which was, you need to go to more conferences.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

You

Dana DiTomaso

I was just gonna say I probably said you need to go to more conferences cuz yes Yeah, yeah

Noah Learner

Yeah, totally. So, um, this is a real treat. I think that, um, before we go too far, you've been working on tracking LLMs in GA4. I think it would be amazing to start there. think that's something that's crazy actionable that people will want to implement right away. And I believe I've got a link to your article here that I'll throw up, um, at the same time so that everybody can find it.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Yeah, for sure. That's the one. Yep. Yep. And yeah, I'll share my, let's see, I'll share this particular window. Okay, so this is the post. How to report in traffic for ANT tools in GA4. Feel free to read it, feel free to watch it. I like to present my content in two possible ways, because I hate videos. Other people.

Noah Learner

It's here somewhere. There it is. Okay, awesome. Do you want to take control?

Dana DiTomaso

Weirdos love videos. I'm kidding. You're not actually a weirdo. hear lots of people have videos, but I'm a reader. And so that's why I like to provide both versions of it. So if you prefer to have a walkthrough, here's a step by step. If you prefer to have a video, there you go. What I'll do is I'll actually go into GA4 and show you the steps to set this up in case you're like, this feels too complicated. It is extremely quick. So what I have here is a demo GA4 that was graciously set up for me and a bunch of other people by Steve Lamar. And all it has is

totally fake GA4 data in it, which is awesome because sometimes like I use client accounts with their permission in the learning and the videos that I present, but sometimes it's good to have just totally fake data. So this is what this is. And in here, right now I'm in the traffic acquisition report and I'm looking at session source medium in GA4. And in case you're ever in GA4 and you're like, how did you get to source medium? With any report, you can always open up this dropdown here. It's called the dimension dropdown, primary dimension. And then you could choose, for example,

session source medium. And so if I go through this, you can see I actually don't have any AI traffic in here because it is fake traffic. So I'm just going to grab something else. I'm actually going to grab Facebook Paid Social in the actual example, but I'm going to walk through like how to set it up for real in case you do have traffic. But if you want to check, the easiest thing to do is to go into traffic acquisition, which would be under acquisition. If you have the lifecycle reports by default, it could be under leads if you have a different collection, but traffic acquisition is in there somewhere.

And then look at your source medium and then search for things like just chat GPT, for example, just go into the search and type in chat and hit enter and then you'll see if you have anything. So here's Snapchat, for example, which is not, you know, what we're quite looking for. But then you could see if you have chat GPT or perplexity or Gemini or any of those other items. But what I want to do is I want to make a channel specifically for this to break it out. And I think making custom channel groups in GA4 is actually a really great thing to do, regardless of the type of business that you have.

because there's always types of traffic that are really critical for your business and don't necessarily fit in the default groups that Google has set up for you.

Dana DiTomaso

So for here, for example, you can see there's a whole bunch of unassigned traffic. Unassigned means that these are sources and mediums that Google does not know how to categorize. So it sticks it under unassigned. I always like cleaning up unassigned anyway, but then we have other groups here, paid social, paid search, et cetera. So think back to like what you, your business, your clients, what they do. And if there's a custom channel group that makes sense, like print, if you do a lot of print stuff, can you track that? You know, if there's like a specific, if you want to pull up Facebook ads separate from all other paid social, maybe that's a really critical channel for you.

I do a lot on Yelp ads, which...

Yelp ads normally are not great returns, but for this client they are. I'm not going to question it. I'm just going to go with it. So we have a separate channel just for Yelp, for example. So do separate out these channels to make it more custom for yourself. And to do that, you go into the admin and you do have to have editor level access to GA4. So if you don't see these options, you need to have your access upgraded. And then here under data display. and something else about GA4, the interface changes approximately every 10 minutes. So what you're seeing right here might be different tomorrow.

just like GA4, B and GA4. One time I had a change. Oh, yeah, you bet. A little too quiet. OK, one second.

Noah Learner

Dana, can you turn your gain up on your microphone? People are, yeah, people are.

Dana DiTomaso

Okay, hopefully that's not.

How's that, nope, I think I turned it to the wrong way. How's that?

Noah Learner

All right, let's I'll wait to you.

Dana DiTomaso

wrong game. There we go. How's that? Is that better? Hopefully people.

Noah Learner

Can you ask folks in chat,

Dana DiTomaso

Yeah.

Noah Learner

You sound great to me. mean, I can hear you awesome.

Dana DiTomaso

I know, this is a thing too that I find with live streams is like I sound fine to the person I'm presenting with but then something happens on the stream and I end up being quiet and this is like not the first time this has happened. So I turned the gain way up, hopefully that is okay. People are typing, let's see. Okay, I am saying things. But yes, as I was saying about the interface changing approximately every 10 minutes, one time I was doing a training session in Australia.

Noah Learner

Yeah, you sound great to me.

Dana DiTomaso

And of course Australia, different time zone from North America. Halfway through the interface just changed. Just boom right there. So like it changes all the time. So this is where it is today. Tomorrow maybe somewhere else. Google likes to keep you on your toes. Okay, so you go under data display, you click on channel groups. And then in here you have your default channel group. This is the predefined channel group and you can see all the different channels that Google has set up in here. You can't modify this. You have to create a new channel group. You can only create up to

Noah Learner

You

Dana DiTomaso

three channel groups, but then you can create as many channels in a group as you want. And so I'm just gonna call this custom channel group.

And then we're going to add a new channel. So we'll click add new channel. And then if I was doing the AI tools post, I was going to call this channel name AI tools. And then if you head on back over to the post, I'm going to scroll down to the section with my super long regex, which is right here, copy and paste this in. And we're going to add a condition group on the source because that's how it shows up. So we'll say add condition group source. And then for conditions, we're going to choose matches regex. And then you paste this in, hit apply.

Save. Done. But the thing is with AI traffic, it often shows up in the referral channel by default. And Google, when it's putting traffic into channels, it sorts it like buckets from top down. So direct is everything that doesn't, you know, just shows up as direct. So that bucket is pulled out, cross network is pulled out, paid shopping is pulled out, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And if we didn't move this AI tools channel, it would still end up in referral because referral is above AI tools.

So we have to click on reorder here and then use the little toggles to drag that and put it up ahead of referral. That's it. Hit apply. And then that's added. Now I'll add another channel now just for Facebook ads, just to pull that out. So you can see it actually work with some real data in this test group. So we'll make a new channel called Facebook ads. And we'll say for the condition group, it would be where the medium matches exactly. we'll say Facebook.

Or was it the source? Well, hang on. Source exactly matches Facebook. And then the medium, I believe, was paid social. and then you need to make sure that it's and or or. So in this case, I'm looking for source matches Facebook and medium matches paid social. If it's or, so source or Facebook or Instagram, if you wanted to make meta ads, for example, you would click or. In this case, I want it to be both.

Dana DiTomaso

So it's source and medium exactly matches. And I'm going to say paid social apply. And then the other thing I have to do is I have to make sure to pull this above paid social or else all that will show up in the paid social channel. So I'm going to scroll on down, drag that up to above paid social, hit apply. going to save the group. And now we're going to head back over to reports. Take a look at that traffic acquisition report.

And now we'll actually see our custom channel group show up here. It is instantaneous. And then we're going to hit apply. And now you can see we have Facebook ads showing up here is one of our new channels that we created. Great. Now, if you want to make a report that just reports on this channel, for example, I want to see what pages people are landing on from the specific channel. Then usually what I say with reports in GA4, start with one that's close to what you want. So I'm to go to engagement and then landing pages.

This is since I want landing pages, this makes sense. Then I'm to click on customize report. Again, if you don't see that pencil icon for customizing report, I'll go back again so people can see what I'm clicking on the pencil icon here. If you can't see this pencil icon, it means that you don't have sufficient permissions. So again, you might have to get your permissions upgraded. And then we're going to add a filter. So we're going to click on add filter and we're going to say where the custom channel group exactly matches.

And then we're going to choose Facebook ads or in this case, you know, AI tools, for example, from that dropdown, click apply. And then we're not going to change anything else. We can just see here's all the landing pages when the session custom channel group exactly matches Facebook ads. And then we're going to save that and we're going to save it as a new report. And we're going to call this Facebook ads landing pages.

Dana DiTomaso

save. Now we have our new report, but then how do we get our new report to show up in the actual reporting sidebar navigation? and there's a bug right now in GA4. If you customize a report and then you click on reports to get the reports navigation to load up, it does not load up. You have to go into explorer briefly and then go back to reports. I have reported this bug. happened before Christmas. Anyway. All right. So then we're to click on library down here at the bottom. And this is where you go to modify the sidebar navigation here.

These sections, Lifecycle, User are called Collections. And then in a collection, you have Topics, Acquisitions a Topic, Engagement is a Topic, Monetization is a Topic, et cetera. So we're gonna modify the Lifecycle Topic. We're gonna click the three little dots and say Edit. And then we're gonna find that Facebook report that we just made. And then we're gonna drag that over to underneath landing pages, click Save. And then back.

And then we should see it listed here. That's it. Ta-da. So now you have your custom report. So what I would recommend is going through the steps in the post to create your AI custom channel and then create a custom report that pulls out just that AI traffic. You can look at, for example, landing pages. And then, yeah, and then you have a fun custom report that you can see if you're getting lots more AI traffic. mean, it's not necessarily a huge amount of traffic. For some clients I'm seeing like 1%. It's like the high watermark.

But if you actually look at it, it's all doubling month over month. So I think it is going to become more. I don't think it's going to become like as much as say organic search in the next year. But certainly it is going to increase. And I think it's important information to keep an eye on. I also see the visitors who come from AI sources are pretty engaged. So it's something that I think is really important to also see like make an audience in GA4. People came to your site via AI tools, for example, like really start to see what you can do with these individual people and how they engage with your content.

Noah Learner

We got a question in chat, which was, this user scoped or is this session scope?

Dana DiTomaso

What I have done, well, when you create a custom channel, the scope is entirely up to the report you're looking at. So if you choose user, if you choose traffic, then that's session scoped. And then if you choose user, then that is user scoped. And by user, I mean the first user. So when you look at user acquisition, that is the very first way that a user got to your website. And that could be AI tools, for example.

But then when you look at session scope, it's how they got to you in the most recent session, which could also be their first session if that's their very first time on your website. So if the user and the session is the same, it's probably their first visit or they just always use that channel to get to you.

Noah Learner

I just want to throw up that link again for everybody. I love that. I started taking the query GA4 data in BigQuery, that course from Simmer, and that got me thinking a little bit about who do you look up to? Like who are your heroes when we think about all of this data stuff?

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Yep. Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm.

Man, I learned so much from Seemo Ahava when I first got started in this part of the field, because I mean, I was doing SEO for a long time. I started working in the field in 2000. And then one of my very first website clients said to me, I was making websites, said, know, why am I not on Google? And I said, I don't know, I'll get back to you. And I Googled it. And I came up actually with Rand Fishkin site. And this is pre-Moz. This is the website company that he was running before Moz existed. And so I started following his blog.

and I got to meet him actually for the first time back in 2004 at SES Toronto, which was a conference pre SMX, which was super fun. yeah, my God, I can't believe I've known him for 21 years anyway. So it's, I'm feeling very old right now. Yeah. I think, I think it's, I think people like, obviously, you know, people like Rand have pushed the industry for sure. but some people I really admire like Aleda Solis.

Noah Learner

Mmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Her ability to crank workout is spectacular. I don't know how she does it. I have asked her and she's like, I don't know, I just do it. And it's just, yeah, I'm always so impressed with the volume of information that she provides and like new information all the time. She's always keeping up with stuff. Her newsletter's incredible. She's definitely someone who I think is just super cool in the industry and really impressive.

Noah Learner

I actually feel the same way about you. And when I think about all the stuff that you've been able to accomplish, all the businesses you've started and how you've grown into LinkedIn learning, and I've always wondered how the hell is she so organized and how does she get so much stuff done?

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Medication is the answer to that question. I mean, I think so. I have ADHD. I was diagnosed quite late in life. So I am 50 now. I was diagnosed at just doing the math here. 43, I think. So it would have been seven years ago. And I, my whole life was like, why can't I get things done? I barely passed university. I'm not a good student. I'm not a good employee.

Noah Learner

Ahem.

Dana DiTomaso

This is why own a business, because I am a horrible employee. That's the main reason, right? I think a lot of us who end up working for ourselves are like, I'm a crappy employee. I'm going to go start my own business. I'm glad that there are people that are good employees. Yeah, and I think that it's really my ADHD, because I didn't get diagnosed for so long. I had all these different tools to get shit done. And actually, one of the most important ones was the book, Getting Things Done, which is back here on my shelf somewhere.

Noah Learner

Yeah.

Dana DiTomaso

Yeah, and it was a really critical book to help me get a system together to get organized. And then I had the system and like I got things done eventually, but focusing was really tough. And then when I actually got the medication, it was like, wow, first off, I'm not lazy. Second of all, now that I have all these systems, it's been...

really incredible that I already have these systems to help me get things done. And now I have the medication that means I can actually execute on those systems. So if you look at my production from like 2000 to 2017 versus my production from 2017 onwards, you might see a bit of a difference for sure. I think that's, and that's also about when I started getting into analytics as well. So I think that's, that's the big thing. And it's, it's also understanding like when I need to take time and when I'm tired.

and like I got super lucky. Some people who get diagnosed with ADHD, takes a long time to find the drugs that work for them. and so like I managed to land on the one that works for me right away, which was great. I had to do a little medication tweak over the holidays. and that went really well, but it's just like, I think, I think that if you suspect you have ADHD, and not just based on like TikTok memes, like, I forgot what I walked into the room. Like that's not, that's it's like a lifetime of like not getting shit done.

Noah Learner

Yeah.

Dana DiTomaso

talk to somebody. I know it takes a while. got super lucky. have obviously I live in Canada. I have great health care. So it was a bit easier for me, but like obviously there's a real shortage of mental health professionals in general, but I think it is really critical for people to like deal with their mental health for sure. So yeah.

Noah Learner

Yeah.

Noah Learner

I was talking with Jason Dodge, I think at Brighton SEO we were walking and he was telling me how he had just been diagnosed and I asked him, I was like, do you think I am? And he said, yeah. Super funny.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I've always been, I joke that like in my bio, one of my lines is like, she collects hobbies. And like, I still do. There's certain aspects of me that like, I, there's parts of me that are like annoying habits that was a reaction to ADHD, but there's also parts of me where like, I'm just a naturally curious person. I like trying new things. And I think those lend themselves really well to what I do.

But I also think that like there's an aspect of like being able to finish a project that was not something like that's what I need the drugs for, you know? And I do take stimulants and I think there's a lot of like concern about people like, I don't know about the stimulants, et cetera. I think you just have to try it, you know what? And if it doesn't work for you, then stop taking it. But I think you just have to try it. And like my brother also has ADHD, but he has more classic like boy ADHD. And so he got diagnosed when he was like eight.

And he's been on, you know, stimulants this whole life too. And it's been just game changer for him too.

Noah Learner

I never thought that I was until the last two or three years. Like I started if, I mean just like my ability to focus has changed. Okay, we got a great question in chat. Did you expect to become the go-to person for GA4 and where do you wanna go from here?

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm. It's a lot of people. Mm-hmm. Yep.

Dana DiTomaso

I kind of wanted to become the go-to person for GA4. So I definitely, I was just talking to my wife about this actually. I always like setting big goals. I remember I was sitting at MozCon when it was still called the Seattle Marketing Summit or whatever it was, and I was like, I wanna speak here one day. And then I did, and I was like, okay, now what? I wanna speak here again. And then I spoke there 10 times, like, okay, now what? It was like, okay, so now, doing the LinkedIn courses, doing my own courses, doing, and part of it was,

The first time I learned, like I actually sat down and learned GA4 was Charles Farina had just published his course on CXL and like, I'm gonna take a weekend and actually learn this thing. And I think it was still GA, was still called GA App and Web at that point. Like I gotta learn this thing, I know it's coming. There was no sunset date for UA announced at that point. It was just like, I know this is where the future is gonna be and I'm gonna have to do this. And when I was doing it, I was like, you know what, there's not a lot of great resources out there for App and Web. Like I really should start making some.

And that was, you know, part of my thing is like, I don't just want to be part of the industry. definitely want to be like helping drive the direction of the industry, you know? And I think that a lot of the work that I've done, especially around talking to people about better reporting and like stop reporting on rankings and make better looking reports and like just trying to change this industry for the better for sure is one of my overall goals in life.

Noah Learner

I was looking at Moz.com and I was looking at your, like all your contributions over the years. And I looked at a whiteboard, I watched a whiteboard Friday from 2014 and the, yeah. And it was like, just basically the message about reporting hasn't changed like all that much.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Hmm. But that would be the one that covers reporting that doesn't involve rank reports. Yeah.

Dana DiTomaso

No, no, and that, and that talk in 2014 was the one that I think really put me on the path towards talking about reporting because that was about like having better conversations with clients. And I had talked about like how to build good reports. And the thing is with good reports, like the tools don't matter, right? Like people say, you only talk about GA4. Yeah, but like, I don't really care which analytics tool you use. That doesn't matter. The principles of good reporting.

Noah Learner

Mm.

Dana DiTomaso

are there regardless of where the data actually comes from, you know? And I think that that's something where we focus too much on the tool and not enough on the learning. And it's something in my mind that I think about like the difference between going to university and going to college. And I think in the American context, you call both things college, but like college versus community college, I think is the more for the Americans out there. But in Canada, we have universities, which is a four year degree granting. then college is like a two, three year.

Noah Learner

Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Diploma is what you end up with the end of it. So part of what you learn at university is how to deal with bureaucracy, but you also learn how to think about a problem, right? It's not necessarily applicable knowledge, but then if you go to college, you're like learning how to do this one specific thing. And I went to school for geography, which I obviously use every single day in my current career. But part of what I learned is to how to think about problems. And we also had a course on how to work at environmental consulting company, which I still use in my day to day life.

But then I did a year of ecosystem restoration, which was romping around rivers and learning how to identify trees and stuff like that, right? And that's the hands-on piece. So I think you need that theoretical framework, but then you also need that applied perspective. And so if we think about it, like the idea of how to think about reporting is that theoretical framework. And then GA4 is that tool's hands-on perspective.

Noah Learner

Hmph. You kinda cheated. I was gonna spring it on you. I was gonna surprise you that I knew that you studied geography.

Dana DiTomaso

I think it's like when people like ask for a fun fact I'm like this is always a fun fact. So I think people know now that that's like what my degree is in. But yeah I went to school 93 to 97. The very first web browser came out in my very first year of university. I think that if I was like slightly younger than I am I probably would have ended up in the internet from the start but I just I didn't know what to do so I did geography because I like romping in rivers so.

Noah Learner

Remind me, did a cycling injury start your digital career?

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can't believe I told you. So in when I was 18, I got hit by a car while I was riding my bike and the pedal went through my leg. It was not good. It severed my Achilles tendon. I still have problems with it. And I ended up laid up for a whole month. So I got myself teach yourself Microsoft Access in 28 days because I was like, I have a month. I'm just going to learn Microsoft Access. And so I sat on my 386.

Noah Learner

Ahem.

Dana DiTomaso

and taught myself Microsoft Access 2.0. And I ended up getting a job doing a database for the Canadian government, like one of their, like the hydrology division or something, doing a database on like how to effectively get rid of wastewater from metal plating operations based on what type of metal plating it was. And it was like a lookup table. And then I ended up working at a software company where it was Microsoft Access Software. So that was just, and then I ended up working at a CRM company and then...

I got a really nice layoff package from there and that's where I ended up learning how to make websites.

Noah Learner

Okay, so let's go back to this concept of what we learn at university for a second. I've seen so many talks where you've taught us all how to think about doing data visualization and how to do data storytelling. I've never heard you talk about how you actually perform analysis and how you actually think and do critical thinking. I'd love to explore that if you're open to it.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Mmm.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, totally. It's something for sure I've roughly talked about more. I love doing detective work. And so often when I'm starting on an analysis, I'm not starting with, I'm starting with a question always. Like, and the question could be super vague at that point. Like what is wrong with this website? You know, this website is not performing as well as it should be, or it's okay, but I feel like it could be better. Like what's wrong with this website?

And then I start to think about what are the things that we need to know in order to answer this question? Like what is the evidence that we require? And so then we can go into, if it's something I've already set up, then I would have the events that I need. For example, like which CTA buttons are people clicking on? What is the average scroll depth? Are they actually even seeing the CTAs at all, for example? Are they getting hung up on the form at some point? But if it's something where we haven't set up the analytics yet, then this would be where I go into the analytics and figure out like what are the things that I need in order to answer this question?

that we have, like why are things performing well or why is this performing so well and how can we replicate it on other pages, for example. And I think that that's really, it is just detective work. And often I don't go in with an agenda, I just start looking at reports and then being like, huh, that seems odd. And then just diving down a hole of what is going on in the specific page, you know? And so it isn't, I don't have a checklist, I don't do a specific set of steps.

It's more just taking, looking at the data and then applying, you know, my SEO knowledge and my GA4 knowledge, and then going down that path to investigate like, what is this problem? And I do really think of it like detective work, where you're not coming in with a preconceived notion of like, this is the answer. It's also like the scientific method, right? Like you have your hypothesis and then you're really setting out to disprove it, not prove it. and then you, you know, go through your whole

Dana DiTomaso

experiments and everything else and like, is this data trustable, cetera. and that's, and then you end up at your conclusion, but that's where partly as well, you know, it can be scientific in a way, but it's less scientific than I think people want it to be because the data and I've spoken to at this length is not totally accurate. So you also have to keep that in mind is that it is a little bit like detective work where it is, you know, like blood spatter analysis. Is that real? Is that a real thing or not? You know,

Noah Learner

Yeah.

Dana DiTomaso

And so it's like, well, number of people viewing this page, is that a real number? Let's just look at it as a trend. And I think that that's where it can be really valuable. You don't want to end up being like that guy in It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, like waving hands in front of the big chart of like all the different connections being drawn to stuff. I love that GIF. Yeah, Charlie, yeah. But at the same time, like you definitely do need to draw those connections. And sometimes they are.

Noah Learner

Charlie? Yeah.

Dana DiTomaso

very uh interrupted for sure and I often find too that like my best ideas don't necessarily come when I'm sitting at GA4 looking at it um I often will like think about a problem when I'm on a walk or you know shower thoughts showers are a great time to come up with interesting ideas I'll often yell you know out to my wife like Ashley write this down um she loves that and uh you know it's just something to think about later on be like is this happening or I need to investigate this further um and I think I don't necessarily think it's a linear sort of

path sometimes.

Noah Learner

See, you're tapping into something that resonates a lot with me. When I build things, rather than do analysis, a lot of times I found that when I scope a project, almost always takes three builds. And it's like you build it one way, and then you realize that the execution or the data model or something about it just doesn't quite work, and you have to go through the second iteration, at which point you realize that there's other things that you need to tweak.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm.

Noah Learner

And it's just nonlinear and sometimes it comes together quickly and sometimes it doesn't. And it's nice to know that I'm not the only one that struggles with this stuff taking time.

Dana DiTomaso

yeah, for sure. And even like when I write blog posts, for example. So for example, the post about how your marketing analytics data is wrong, that post itself actually came together extremely quickly. I wrote it in three hours in a Starbucks. my wife was at a farmer's market that day and I was just like, I'm just going to go to the Starbucks while you're at the market and just write. And, but at that point I had already spent hours working on that MozCon presentation. So by the time it came to writing, like it just flowed, which was great.

But there's a lot of work that goes into the presentation itself and I often work in like a presentation like format in my head before I actually write out my findings.

Noah Learner

We got a great thing from Barry Schwartz. Please tell Dana, thank you for all she does for our community.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

You're welcome. Thank you.

Noah Learner

That was actually super cool to see Will Reynolds give you that kind of shout out at Brighton SEO this year.

Dana DiTomaso

Yeah, that was totally unexpected. He came out to me beforehand and like, I'm going to mention you in my presentation. Like, OK. I wasn't expecting to have my face on the screen, you know. But yeah, that was pretty fun for sure.

Noah Learner

Can we talk about one or two of the most expensive lessons you've ever had to learn? Can we dive into some of your failures? Have you ever failed at anything?

Dana DiTomaso

Mmm.

Dana DiTomaso

my God, all the time, you kidding me? And of course, you know, being who I am, the failures are the things that I remember, not the successes. I would say, yeah, I've definitely had some expensive mistakes. I have to say when you start your own business, make sure you have a good bookkeeper and a good accountant and a good lawyer, really critical stuff. And I would say recognizing what you're bad at is really important.

Noah Learner

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

You know, like I am bad at working with people. So surprising no one, think, but yeah, I'm not good at it. And it's not something that comes to me naturally. It's not something that I think even with practice, I am getting good at. And so, you know, one of the things that, that I talk a lot about, but I don't know if it necessarily like people know is like, don't 100 % own KickPoint. I own it 50 50 with a business partner, Jen. And she is incredible at all the things that I am very, very bad at.

And she'll never learn GA4 and that's fine because it's great because then she can read my posts and be like, what is happening here? And have that like, you know, new person perspective that I desperately need on my content, especially as I get further and further into GA4 land. And Jen is a fantastic balance. And I'm so glad I met her. Kick Point would literally be a smoking crater if she did not exist because I am very bad at lot of things. And then Laura, our director of operations as well, like she is extremely critical.

to the operations of Kick My Leg. Jen and I joked once like, ah, if Laura left, oh well, we had a good run. It's just like, that's how important she is. And I think that that's where it's really important to acknowledge what you're bad at. I hate acknowledging when I fail at stuff. I will do anything but acknowledge that I did not fail, that I failed at something.

And then, but yeah, it's something where it's like getting those people who are good at the things that you are not good at and then like letting them do those things and not trying to stay involved. Great, love it, get out of the way, you know? I think when we're talking about failures from like a work perspective, I for sure have screwed up some analytics implementations over the years. my God, no question. And I know why, it's when I'm rushing.

Noah Learner

Yeah.

Dana DiTomaso

And I think that I really need to make sure that I'm not rushing on stuff. And I try really hard not to work on two similar implementations at the same time because my brain can get confused about which one I'm working on. And so that's really important for me as well to remember is like, don't do exactly like, I can't do two analytics implementations on the same day, because I will screw it up. And I have screwed it up for sure. And like when you screw up, like, yeah, it sucks. I hate having to tell a client like, yeah, I screwed up.

Noah Learner

Mm.

Noah Learner

Wow.

Dana DiTomaso

but yeah, it happens. And I would say the other way I fail is like my ADHD, you know, despite the medication gets in the way and I will put something off until I die. Unless I like actually make myself sit down and do it. So I have all sorts of tricks when I'm like, don't want to get work done and I have to get work done. Like I have headphones that I wear. have specific podcasts that I listen to. Like you just, you just gotta, sometimes you just gotta sit down and power through it I just make myself do it.

Noah Learner

Hmm. So we've talked about LinkedIn learning in tangentially. Can we celebrate you for just a minute? 180,000 students. Oh my God, data. Oh my God.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Yeah, it's pretty wild. Yeah, it's crazy. all that came, I think, in the past year. So I got to go, actually, the past half year. So I got to go down to, when I first did my LinkedIn learning courses, I was recording them remotely because COVID. And then in June last year, I got to go down to Carpentaria, which is just outside.

Santa, don't know, somewhere in California, I can't remember the name now. I wanna say Santa Teresa, because I've been reading the alphabet novels, the alphabet detective novels, and that's where it's set, but it's like, that's not the name of the actual city. Anyway, so Carpinteria's this cute little town, it's where, LinkedIn Learning used to be lynda.com, and that's where Lynda was based, and so it's this adorable little studio. Everyone there is like the nicest people I've ever worked with.

Noah Learner

I'm

Dana DiTomaso

And I got to record in person. I did two courses over three days, which was super intense, but that's the time that I had. So I redid my technical SEO course and I redid the advanced GA4 course. And they both have been like rocket ships since they've been re-released, which is great.

Noah Learner

You've had something like 120,000 students in the Tech SEO class, I think.

Dana DiTomaso

Yeah, that's the one that's the most popular is crazy. Yeah. Yeah, I know. Like maybe I should sell a course in tech I see. Yeah. Yeah.

Noah Learner

my God. What did you... I mean, so walk us through that for a minute. Like, hey, I think I want to do a course. There's the... They approached me too at one point and I don't know why I didn't do it at the time. I didn't know what I wanted to do it on and... okay.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm. They came to me, actually.

Yeah. Yeah.

I told them to talk to you. Yeah, I sent them to you. Yeah, I think it's for me, they approached me. They were referred to me by, I can't remember off the of my head now, one of our industry colleagues who had done a course with them. And the first one they needed was tech SEO because it was getting aged. It was pretty like, I think it was six years old. was like things have changed, not too many things, but like there was enough things that had changed and some things were just like not correct.

I think there's a lot of like bogus SEO advice out there that I always try to stamp down. And so this had like some questionable bits to it. So happy to redo it. Fantastic producer to work with, like great content manager. And I think that that really helped teach me how to structure a course. And then after that I did, I think the how to transition from UA to GA4 and then I did advanced GA4 and then I did a course on website planning. And we're talking about like maybe redoing the introduction to SEO course.

on there as well this year. Their entry level GA4 course desperately needs an update and if Cory, the guy who does it now, is not interested in doing it, I'll happily jump in and do that. But yeah, I think I learned a lot about how to structure a course from that process and doing it so many times. And so that's the same process that we use when we build courses at KP Playbook is based off this LinkedIn method.

Noah Learner

Ooh, we got to talk about that. So, analytics for agencies, that, that course for everybody out there who's like trying to wrap their mind around like, okay, so I don't have reporting going smoothly at my agency. How do I go from zero to happy clients? Like that course is the bomb, like full on the bomb. I know a lot about analytics and I know a lot about data visualization. And I think the thing that.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Thank you.

Noah Learner

I was most frustrated at was the fact that you used Montserrat and all your templates because it made me feel like, my God, she's gonna feel like I'm copying her because it's literally the only font in Looker Studio that does a good bold and normal. So you could do like a headline and body text. I was like, damn it, she used Montserrat.

Dana DiTomaso

It's a great fun. Yep.

Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. That's it's a great font. I use that one most, I think, unless a client has like a font that they prefer. That's that's one of the Looker Studio fonts. But those those fonts in Looker Studio, man, like, what are they thinking? They are not good choices. So, yeah, I mean, I remember I harassed them so much about adding 16 point that they added it and then called me out on Twitter when they finally added. But, you know, now my next harassment is like, add better fonts. Like you have this whole Google Fonts library. Why can't we add our own fonts anyway?

Noah Learner

Yeah, totally.

Ahem.

Noah Learner

Yeah.

Dana DiTomaso

Apparently there are modernizations coming to the Chris Video Chart, so we will see.

Noah Learner

Can you tell us a little bit about what you learned building that community, the Kickpoint Playbook community?

Dana DiTomaso

I don't actually do a lot of community building myself. I would say that Amy and Jesse on the team are the ones who pay the most attention to the community. I just make sure to pay attention to questions that are asked and that I can go in and answer them. But I think the biggest thing with building the course, building Analytics for Agencies was one of the toughest projects I've ever worked on, for sure. It took significantly longer than expected.

I had two cats die during the process. Like it was just like, especially like my, my, my cat, like a month, I think, before we finished. It was like both that Ashley had one of her grandparents die. Like it was just like that year was a crappy crappy year just in general. And then like to keep plowing through this course that I felt like was never going to end. And I think what I learned from it was like, don't start with a big course, start with a little course. But I also wonder that if I had started with a little course, would I ever do the big course?

Noah Learner

Ugh.

Noah Learner

Mm.

Noah Learner

Yeah.

Dana DiTomaso

You know, I might not have, might've just stuck with the little one. like maybe it ended up being okay that I did this big one first, but yeah, we learned a lot. We had to learn how to set up the website. We had to learn the best way to record videos. Just as we started editing, we found a script, thank God, because without the script, I don't think the editing would have gone half as smoothly as it did. So yeah, we learned a ton. I had to figure out how to light myself in my office, which I still struggle with some days, because I live in the West coast and it's cloudy half the time and I rely a lot on.

Noah Learner

Hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

light like today it's raining and so it's you know I have more like lights on than I want yeah yeah it doesn't it doesn't snow here so it's it's I don't really like I live in Canada but is it Canada it doesn't snow so yeah it's it's I think I learned we learned a lot about how to set things up and so I think the second course Practical GA 4 went more smoothly for sure

Noah Learner

It's snowing in front of me. You can't tell, but it's snowing.

Noah Learner

You

Dana DiTomaso

And then the course that I'm working on right now, which is like a little baby GA4 audit course, like GA4 Red Flags is what we're tentatively calling it, but I think the final title will be something else. That's going to be, that's much faster because it's again smaller. But then after this, we'll be moving into some bigger courses again.

Noah Learner

Can you tell me a little bit about who your heroes are as speakers?

Dana DiTomaso

a late assault is for sure. Yep. Yep, for sure. Well, just the level of information that she always has at hand. I don't know how she keeps up. Like one of the things that I do for myself is I have a standing meeting with myself every day for 15 minutes called reading time. And I have a little notebook and I open up my newsletters folder or my pocket where I keep articles that are interesting. And then I read through those for at least 15 minutes, sometimes long. And then I take notes on what I'm reading. So I don't write it down. I don't remember it.

Noah Learner

Tell me more about that.

Dana DiTomaso

But that's how I keep up on the industry. And it's just, you know, 15 minutes every workday, but again, sometimes longer. If I'm on a flight, I use a Kobo for my e-reader and a Kobo connects with Pocket so I can actually take my Pocket articles with me on a flight. And then I can catch up on a whole bunch of reading at once, which is great. Yeah. And I would say like the latest stuff is something that I consistently make time to read. I think someone who like really has...

of speaking style that connects well with people. There's certainly, you know, April Dunford, if you haven't seen her speak. She's one of the, I think she's got one of the best speaking styles I've ever seen. I really enjoyed watching her, level of rehearsal, her ability to like connect with the slides at the right moment. Like she's, she's great. And she's been doing, you know, presentations for years and years. So I really enjoy watching her stuff as well.

Noah Learner

Mmm.

Noah Learner

I've loved, I mean, I've loved, loved, loved, you generally hear me cackling in the audience, right? Whenever you're on stage. Yeah. I've learned a lot from you, especially like clarity and simplicity of messaging behind you as you're talking. Like I've really tried to pare down to do really simple text on screen.

Dana DiTomaso

Yes, because you're always right up front.

Dana DiTomaso

Yeah, and I think that's something that I've done like from my very first MozCon talk was always that idea of like illustrations, just one line of text. Because what I see people doing, and I think this might be a crutch, you know, you're like, I'm up here, I feel very vulnerable. And so I'm gonna insulate myself with like a whole bunch of text on the screen so people can read it. But it's like, you don't want people, like my slides are kind of useless outside of my actual talk. If you don't watch the recorded talk, my slides are kind of not actually helpful.

And I'm sorry about that, but also it's for a reason, which is I want you to pay attention to me. That's why you're there. Cause if you wanted to read a bunch of slides, you would just read a blog post and that's not the point of going to a conference. Right. And so I think that that's where like really less is more in presentations and also for reporting too. Like I really encourage people dial it back. We don't want to have like a Star Trek level dashboard. We just want to have like, what is the answer to this one question right in front of us. Um, and again, I think that that's like just a comfort level with the message that you're delivering.

when you're completely sure in your content, then you can dial it back and know that what you're saying on stage is exactly what people need to hear. And I would say like the MozCon talk I did this year is probably in my mind, like one of my top three that I've delivered ever, combined with the 2014 reporting talk as well. I would say like those are my top two. I think probably like a Learn Inbound talk was up there as well in Ireland, that event no longer exists. But yeah, I think that there's like it just...

It felt good. The audience was responding well to it. I hit the last slide just as the timer slid to zero, which is always very exciting for me. know, the speakers know exactly how good that feels when you hit, when you hit the final slide and then it just pooped to zero at that moment. thrill ride. Anyway. So yeah, I think that that's where, yeah, I think that that's where it's, you know, the audience is paying attention and

Noah Learner

Ugh.

Noah Learner

Yeah.

Dana DiTomaso

It's hard because when you have people with laptops on, you know that they're looking at their email, you know they're looking at their company Slack, right? They're only half listening. But if you see them at their laptops and you see them looking at you, like that's when you know that your message is really hitting home. And that's what I saw a lot of at MozCon.

Noah Learner

That's great. We got a bunch of questions in chat, so I want to make sure we try and get into some of them.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Yeah, and I don't have anything after this so we can run long if we need to.

Noah Learner

Okay, how much do you rely on or avoid second or third party data when you don't have first party, i.e. relevant GA4 stats in that investigation phase?

Dana DiTomaso

Hmm. I don't use second or third party data sources for the most part. Like I know people are like, I'll look at like SEMrush or Ahrefs or similar web, you know, and I just.

Noah Learner

Mmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Unless you have something to compare it to, I think those data sources might be kind of crappy. Certainly not enough to make any actual true judgments on. Like I really want a first party data source in that case. Unless you know like this is this website and I know the traffic for this website and I'm comparing it to these other websites and hopefully the rate of error on my website is similar to the rate of error on those other websites as well. But yeah, most of the time I just don't, you gotta have GA4 data.

Noah Learner

Awesome.

Dana DiTomaso

or whatever your analytics tool is, but you gotta have that first party data.

Noah Learner

Okay, we got so many questions here. What should I focus on if I only have 10 minutes a day to learn GA4?

Dana DiTomaso

Hmm, I would. Well, there's this course called Practical GA4. You may have heard of it. It's by this person named Dana D. Tommaso. But that is six and a half hours of videos. And I would say like the longest video is like 10 minutes long. So if you did that course 10 minutes at a pop, you would you would get through it in a good amount of time, I think. And I did try to make sure that the lessons are never too. I hate it when people have courses and the lessons like 45 minutes. How am I supposed to find this one part of that lesson again? Right.

Noah Learner

Plug.

Dana DiTomaso

So I do try to break it down as small as possible. Yeah, and I would say like going through a course like that and just giving yourself 10 minute chunks, but also write down what you do every day in a notebook or something so that you know where you left off the day before as well.

Noah Learner

Another good question. When I saw you at Moz in June, you were talking about the troubles with attribution and privacy in GA4. Just wondering if Google's first party mode has improved this.

Dana DiTomaso

No, not really. Sorry. Yeah, I think there's some value in that user reporting of data, but I also think that it's temporary too. I think that not everyone's gonna consent to this. think that, well, I don't know. I don't know what's gonna happen with consent laws in the US. So I think that's gonna be the next driver. Will the US implement a consent law similar to GDPR? I don't know.

If it does, then I think that that's going to impact privacy laws. Maybe they won't. And maybe we will continue to have this weird to privacy thing where if you're in Europe, you can have to consent to everything. And if you're US, you just steal it all away and nobody cares. But yeah, I'm curious to see what ends up happening there. And I think too, it's like not everyone is going to give you what you need in order for that first party mode anyway, because you have to get something out of people like your email address or something. And if no one is ever giving you that, then you're just not going to have that data.

Noah Learner

We've got a really good one here. It's very specific. How would you go about investigating low CTR on an e-commerce site for non-branded queries? What would you look for? What would you look at?

Dana DiTomaso

Okay.

Dana DiTomaso

I would look at the SERP. I would start there. I would look at, you know, I have a chart that I usually do in my reports, which is queries with high position, but low click through rate. And I would specifically look at the SERP and I would probably, I would try to use a tool like STAT for this if you can, because STAT, think, provides you with the most comprehensive view of what the SERP looks like for that particular query and look at the features.

that exists for that query. Is there some sort of feature set? Like is it images, is it shopping that's really pushing you down? And that's, you maybe you're not even showing up to like halfway down the page. For example, like there's too many paid ads or there's something else going on. Maybe there's a bunch of videos, you know, whatever that SERP is. And then it's like, okay, so the SERP feature that is consistently pushing us down as video, that means we need to implement a video strategy, for example. Or maybe we just have to pay for it.

Maybe the big players in the field, like this is, they're paying for these queries and we have to decide which of these queries we're actually gonna end up paying for in the shopping. You know? And I think that that's where really looking at that. And then beyond that too, like what is the title tag? What is the meta description? If you don't see anything pushing you down and you're there and people just aren't clicking on you, then I would really start looking at title tag and meta description. Obviously Google rewrites these, but if they're not, you know, can you make it better?

Noah Learner

Have you done any kind of analysis where you're focusing on pixels from the top? do you ever, like, that's what I like about Nozzle or I think Demand Sphere or Data for SEO. They all incorporate that. And for me, it's, that seems to be so important now with all the rich results that are in the way that organic stuff gets sort of sandwiched in between stuff and almost lost between different grids and.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Yep. Yeah, yeah, for sure. think pixels is really relative though, because there's so many different devices out there with so many different screen resolutions. So I think about it like, what is the noise coming above you? And then there could be AI overviews, which only show up part of the time, right? So there's lots of different features that could potentially be pushing you down. And I think it's a matter of which one, you know, do you have any potential showing up in? Maybe it's an AI overview. And people do click on results in AI overviews.

Noah Learner

Yeah.

Dana DiTomaso

And I'm actually working on a post right now about tracking people coming to your site via AI overviews. But the problem is that you can't tell the difference between people coming to your site via AI overviews and people coming to your site via a people also ask block. It is exactly the same format. So it's one or the other, but you just don't know which. But I mean, hey, it's more information for sure.

Noah Learner

I remember you commenting in a thread somewhere. I think it was in the SEO community about how you were building a JS block to track a specific type of traffic. Can you tell me more about that?

Dana DiTomaso

Yes. Yeah, this is super experimental. I wouldn't expect to see that this month, but this is, I was working with, I always get Claude, is my favorite AI, to review my posts before I publish. And I was working on that post about tracking AI tools and Claude went off on this tangent, which I asked the wrong question. So, but it ended up being very serendipitous because Claude came back and said, hey, if you want to track AI bots, here's some JavaScript that could potentially track if an AI bot is looking at your website.

with some hints on what identifies a bot user versus a human user. So part of what I'm testing in this JavaScript is can we actually tell if someone is potentially a bot versus probably a human? And then be able to determine how many bots, maybe AI bots, maybe other bots are looking at your website versus actual human beings.

Noah Learner

That's wild. There's a great question here that is up my alley too, but I want to drop it on you. How do we get around the limits of data retention? What do you suggest as tools to keep good data and not lose it after?

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Yeah, you got to figure out what you're going to set up for. Pick the data retention tool you want, like BigQuery obviously for GA4 and Google Search Console. And you don't have to learn BigQuery, just FYI. If you just want the data retention, I always tell people this, just set up the export from GA4 to BigQuery. Just set up the export from Google Search Console to BigQuery. It'll cost you pennies.

And then if you need to learn it later, great. But in that moment, you don't need to learn BigQuery in this moment in order to set up the data retention. And I think that's really critical to just get that data set up and in BigQuery, and then you'll thank yourself two years from now that you have that level of data going back far enough. the best time to set it up was a couple of years ago. Next best time is right now. It takes 10 minutes.

Noah Learner

And then to build on that just a little bit, like this is one of the things that the client should own rather than the agency.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm.

Dana DiTomaso

Yes, absolutely, no question. Yeah, so if you're agency side, make sure the client does it. It's not an easy setup. So if the client isn't comfortable doing it, what I recommend is setting up a Zoom with them, know, set up a half hour Zoom and just walk them through what to click on and then get them to click on the things like I have one client who like he can barely use Zoom. For him, we've worked together for almost 20 years. Like I set it up for him in our account because he's never, ever, ever going to set up Google Cloud. That's OK.

But for other clients, we walk them through it or their IT team takes care of it and I just send over the instructions. Same thing with Google search console. And then I get them to give us access to the data set so that we're able to use it in the reporting. Or sometimes for some clients, they, because one of the things that sucks about Looker studios, you can't transfer dashboards from one workspace to the other. So sometimes I will have the client like create a report, attach the data sources to it, and then give me edit access to the report. And then I can build the report in their account so they own it.

with the data sources, you know, so really thinking ahead to like, how can you make sure that this client owns this thing at the end of the day? And I know for agencies sometimes you're like, but I want them to work with us forever. Well, you can't make people do that. It's not a great way to build a relationship. So really thinking ahead to like, how do I make sure this client owns all this stuff? is the way to go. And if they leave, they leave and you know, shit happens. So it's yeah.

Noah Learner

Yeah. So we're coming up almost on the end here. I want to, I want to just give you a minute to have a soapbox. Any special causes that you want to share with everybody.

Dana DiTomaso

Mm-hmm. Tragic.

Dana DiTomaso

Okay.

Dana DiTomaso

Well one charity that I always love asking people to support is Rainbow Railroad. Rainbow Railroad provides funds to people living in homophobic countries around the world and helps them move to Canada and now the US actually they have a Rainbow Railroad for the USA now so that they can escape often as a refugee from a country where they would normally be arrested or killed for being queer. So it is something that I strongly report.

support. It's when the Bright Local did their local SEO for good. They were my charity of choice. And yeah, it's something that I mean, I think is really critical. I read something once about like people immigrating to Canada that like, you know, Canadians sometimes take a while to get here, but they get here in the end. And it's Canada and the States is a nation of immigrants. And I think it's really critical to support people who are living in a place where they may die for being who they are.

to come to somewhere where they can be free. And I think about it too, because sometimes I'll be asked to speak. I was asked to speak at a conference in Jamaica. I'm like, I can't go to Jamaica. It's one of the top three most homophobic countries in the world. And in case you missed it, I look kind of gay. it's something where I'm not going to go speak at a conference in Jamaica. So yeah, do I miss out on opportunities because of this? For sure. But I'm not going to die. And so I think about people who are in fear of their life because of.

beliefs in the country that they're at and I think it's really important to get those people out of those conditions.

Noah Learner

Dana, this was such a great way to kick off the Campfire Chat series. I'm so grateful that you decided to jump in and join us.

Dana DiTomaso

Of course. Thanks for having me. I love, I love doing these things, honestly.

Noah Learner

I want to thank you for like all the gold that you've been sharing in a variety of channels, including the analytics channel in the community. For everybody who's with us, I want to thank you for spending an hour. For all of the members, thanks so much for being a part of the community, for all the community sponsors, event sponsors, you guys are making what we're doing so special. I think this is just an amazing time to maybe round it up. Any last thoughts you want to share?

Dana DiTomaso

Hmm. I would say, one thing that, if you would like to find out more information, you want to know when I post new posts, et cetera, you can follow me on LinkedIn or there is the playbook newsletter, which is at kpplaybook.com slash newsletter. It's called the huddle. send it out every two weeks. Sports pun, get it, the huddle playbook. anyway, so that is a roundup of what we find interesting, in our own Slack things that we share that we were read and were like, this is great. We should share this with the community. And then we also have exclusive tips that we only include in the newsletter.

And you find out about new courses and get great discounts and stuff that way too.

Noah Learner

Awesome. Okay. This is a great time to say goodbye. Thanks everybody. This was amazing. A great first episode. It was like a train wreck starting, but we, think we got amazing. Yeah, we did great. Okay. I'm going to stop now. Bye everybody.

Dana DiTomaso

We got there. We got there in the end. Bye.